Thursday, November 4, 2010

TSRM's Shark Example 7

In the niche of the shark 'an edible thing' and 'electric field of, say, type F' are nomically related. To predicate of the shark (a) 'detects electric field of type F' and (b) 'takes to be an edible thing' is not to refer to two different states of affairs, one (viz. (b)) that is reached from the other (viz. (a)) by an inference.  (Turvey, Shaw, Reed, and Mace, 1981).
It looks like TSRM think that sharks find food by detecting the electrical fields of fish, but here is what Andrew says they say:
Turvey, Shaw, Reed & Mace (1981)
But Gibson is not denying that information is rooted in physics; he's simply pointing out that the correct level of analysis for the information available to a perceiving organism is ecological. What an organism needs to know is not how far away something is, but whether it can reach that thing - in other words, affordances. You can't get to affordances via the objects of physics, because affordances are personal and contain meaning while physics is neither of these. You therefore have to get to affordances by detecting information about affordances, not units of physics.  (italics added, ref here.)
Here, it looks like Andrew is saying that TSRM think that sharks can't find food (an affordance, right?) by detecting an electric field (a "unit" of physics).  [Actually, this passage seems equivocal to me.  There's the part in the first sentence about Gibson not denying that information is rooted in physics.]

But, then, Andrew also writes this (ref here),
Enter Turvey, Shaw, Reed and Mace. Their reply to F&P is simple: Gibsonian information is suitably constrained (i.e. you can’t just claim any old property can be perceived) and that these constraints are not simply ad hoc, but rooted firmly in a consideration of the physics of the world in which vision evolved. This paper is elegant and clear; in fact its elegance and clarity manage to retrospectively make F&P’s paper worthwhile because it caused Turvey et al to write this.
The constraints lie in the existence of ecological laws. A law describes a set of conditions and the necessary consequence of those conditions (if the temperature of pure water at sea level is 100°C then the water will boil). Laws have scope: the scope is laid out in the set of conditions. Within that scope, the conclusion is necessary, i.e. if the conditions obtain and the scope is correct the conclusion must be the case. Ecological laws lay out the conditions and consequences by which a pattern in (for example) an optic array can specify an object or event in the world; these conditions must relate to the physics of the situation (so ‘shoeness’ is not the kind of property we are dealing with).(italics added)
Now, one must relate organisms to the physics.

So, it looks like there a real dilemma here.  On the one hand, Andrew wants physics ontology to be incommensurable with perceptual ontology, perhaps so that psychology is apparently not reducible to physics.  On the other hand, Andrew wants physics to be commensurable with psychology, so that he can resist the Fodor and Pylyhshyn "trivialization argument".   This seems to me not a mere slip in wording, but the product of distinct theoretical demands.  There are two things, neither of which an EPist, like Andrew, seems to want to abandon. 

Personally, I would think the thing to do is abandon the incommensurability thing.  But, of course, the really big thing to do would be to give up on EP.

4 comments:

  1. At no point have I argued that physics and ecological psychology must be incommensurable. I have only ever argued that physics is the incorrect description of the world-to-be-perceived. Your confusion comes, I think, from conflating 'physical' and 'physics'. To say affordances aren't part of physics is not to say anything other than to point out a straight forward fact:

    'Physical stuff' can be described in multiple ways.
    Physics is one way, and it carves out certain properties.
    Ecological psychology is another way, and it carves out different properties (affordances, which do not and will never appear in the science of physics).

    How does this fit together? Affordances then interact with energy (according to the laws of physics) to produce spatial-temporal patterns in that energy. These patterns specify the affordance, by virtue of (and thus only within the scope of) ecological laws. Physics is important because these laws dictate how the pattern comes to be made; ecological laws are important because these dictate how that pattern can specify an affordance. It's the latter that is directly relevant to a theory of perception, not the former. Thus, there is no incommensurability, just carefully separated levels of analysis.

    The ecological psychology programme of research is then a) identify the affordance, b) identify whether that affordance can give rise to a pattern, c) establish that that pattern specifies the affordance (i.e. is information), and d) establish whether organisms do indeed get to the affordance via the information. Fodor & Pylyshyn are wrong because 'shoeness' isn't a property that can lead to a pattern (via physics) that specifies (via ecological laws) that property.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Let me quote you more succinctly from the original post:
    "You can't get to affordances via the objects of physics"

    "Ecological laws lay out the conditions and consequences by which a pattern in (for example) an optic array can specify an object or event in the world; these conditions must relate to the physics of the situation"

    ReplyDelete
  3. Here is why I am confused.

    On the one hand you write, "You can't get to affordances via the objects of physics".

    On the other, you write "Physics is important because these laws dictate how the pattern comes to be made; ecological laws are important because these dictate how that pattern can specify an affordance." This looks like saying that one gets to affordances from physics (by way of patterns).

    It's pretty hard to pin a contradiction on someone. There's probably always going to be some wriggle room created by differences in wording, but this looks pretty bad to me.

    ReplyDelete
  4. If all you have is physics, then all you get are patterns in energy. You get to affordances via information, and something is only information via ecological law, because to be information the pattern has to specify an affordance and that relation is not supported via physics.

    ReplyDelete